what would a decent BBC build cost

[1SlowFormula]

Hey guys,

Pretty much like the subject asks, what would be the average cost and maybe even output of a decent BBC build?

I am trying to weigh the benifits of sticking with and building up my stock platform (Lt1) or moving off to something different like a carbed BBC, but know nothing about them. I have built up a decent knowledge of what it takes to do what in an LT1, but need to start over when thinking about something new. After doing research I think it sucks spending $6000+ for a decent top of the line LT1 rebuild (doing most of it myself), or $10000 for a built longblock, and still only being able to run low - mid 10's N/A. At that point I can save the money and start building on a platform that I can make good power from. What do you guys think it would take to build a BBC to hang in D/R?

Also, any tips or direction to things to read up on would be great...

[Randy H]

John, sent PM

[Maximum Race Engines]

Every builder will have their own way of achieveing power and at different pricing. What you also need to consider is with a big block, you may need upgrades in the driveline due to added torque, as well as headers and upgradeing suspension for added weight. The same amount invested in a big block usually shows more return in power, and with more reliability. But it is the upgrades in the driveline that get pricey. Although depending on how much power you do make, the upgrades may be needed with the small block as well, but sometimes you have some advantages with the small block. Nose weight especially. Weight transfer is critical on small tire cars, especially with stock suspensions. Just wanted to point out there is more to it in this type of decision.

[Starkravingmad]

Joe is absolutely correct about the "Other" upgrades.  My car was a BBC from the factory.  But because of the massive power it will take to get the 3300 lb hog going into the 9.5-10 range, I still had to replace every part of the driveline, suspension and strengthen the chassis.  I'm not even sure the strenghtened 1969 frame will take the abuse. Be careful what you wish for.....  With the new Dart blocks or other manufaturers, its not that hard to make a 400+ CI small block that is reliable.  It will have less power than a BBC.  Not to much less, but less.  If you are serious about DR, look at what your sled should weigh in legal trim and calculate what HP you will need to get there (you can get this from forums like Smokem'up.com) This will help you decide the SBC Vs BBC question and give you a realistic view of what kind of budget it will take to compete at that level.  Thats just the car part.  Don't forget, tow vehicle, pit stuff, trailer, hidden nitrous system, stuff for your wife/signifigant other to not make them notice the money your spending on racing...........Look at the quote at the bottom of my post.  That pretty much sums it up.

[1SlowFormula]

Thanks for the heads up guys, but I am well aware that the driveline needs to be beefed up, and would have to do it no matter what combo I went with. I know of a few guys running BBC's in a 4th gen f-body, and know what they had to do and it isn't much different then what would need to be done for any other high HP build. And weight transfer should be similar to what I have now, after pulling weight from the front and adding the BBC it should still come out to being about 50# lighter in the front end...

But in doing research I found that most guys that stick with the LT1 don't ever get all out performance from one and they spend more in aftermarket computers, controlers, injectors, converting Vic jr intake to EFI, and tuning then I feel the performance gains are worth. If I was going to pull the EFI and run a built SBC, I feel that I would spend a lot of money to get it built right and make good power, but still know I would want to move on in a year or 2 with that setup and feel it would be a waste. So I am now thinking that I should just do it right the first time and not waste the money on a combo that I am sure I will be happy with, but only for a short while...

The only issue is I know almost nothing of BBC's, such as standard deck height and tall deck height, how much of a difference are we talking about? Does it increase the girth of the motor too or just the height? You know the basic things like that...

Then again, the other option that might be fun is to shoehorn a big Pontiac motor in there, but agian I would be starting from scratch since I know nothing of them either...

[Richard Maitre]

Have fun in AMI this season and when you do the buildup/swap over the winter, make sure the heads you use are legal for Drag Radial next season.....

Rich

[1SlowFormula]

Have fun in AMI this season and when you do the buildup/swap over the winter, make sure the heads you use are legal for Drag Radial next season.....

Rich

Now you know I'd consult you on the heads first, but with some of the reading I have been doing the Dart Big M block filled with decent goddies bringing it to 540 CI and topped off with Dart Pro 1 heads... That is unless I gain more knowledge from you guys that are in the know, and find a better combo...

[1SlowFormula]

Would any of you recomend this book? At least to get some knowledge of stock BBC's or is this a waste of time?

http://www.amazon.com/Rebuild-Chev-Hp755-Tom-Wilson/dp/0895861755

[Starkravingmad]

Don't have that one.  What kind of information are you looking for?  I am not an "expert" by any stretch of the word but BBC is what I am running and I know the basics.

[1SlowFormula]

Well in the past week I have read up on a lot of things about BBC's. I think I know what to look for now, like at first I didn't know the differences between standard deck height and tall deck and what size motors needed what block, but I think I have that covered now. I didn't know the diffeences of Oval and Rec. heads, and now I know the difference but still don't know what is best for the motor I am thinking about building, but leaning more to Rectangle port heads from the reading I have done. I am still rusty on the basics like oiling system design, if restrictors are needed, if so what size for what bearing clearance and things like that, but I am more then likely going to look into an aftermarket block that already has some of that addressed.

Then it comes to the aftermarket stuff, I know nothing of who the top dogs of the BBC world are, and who just makes junk that you should stay away from...
Finding info on race combo's with high compression and the specs of the motor, is almost imposible...
Also Cam sizing is a little tough for me too, since I am used to working with such smaller motors that when I look over specs of cams I think this would be good, then I read elsewhere that that is about standard for a mild smaller cube street motor, not a decent sized (500-540) mostly race motor with some street...

[1SlowFormula]

OK what is the better aftermarket block, World or Dart?

I have been looking around and have a spreadsheet going on parts for a possible buildup and I was all set on the Dart block. But then I came a crossed a few places that are big into World stuff, and they appear to be similar, yet World also sells short blocks and balanced rotating assemblies that have similar components that I was going to use when piecing things together, all except Pistons are the same, they are both forged and have similar CR (~14:1) and all specs are similar between the pistons as well. I was thinking JE pistons, but the World balanced rotating assemblies come with Wiseco, and I could settle for those unless I find something out there that I don't like about them...

So unless someone can tell me why I should not go with the World balanced rotating assembly then I have the choices below:
 1) Dart Big M block ~ $2,229.99 + hand selected R/A ~ $2,650 = 4879.99 + machine work including balancing the R/A and install
 2) Dart big M block ~ $2,229.99 + World balanced R/A ~ $2,499.95 = $4,729.94 + machine work and install
 3) World Merlin III Block and R/A ~$4,399.99 + machine work and install
 4) World shortblock w/ same merlin III block and balanced R/A ~ $4,799.00 assembled (unless these are bad, and please tell me if they are, I think the price is about right )

If I was going to go with the parts I was piecing together seperatly (choice 1), then the rotating assembly would be a little more and that is not even balanced yet, but have slightly better pistons in my oppinion. But then again I don't know much about the Wiseco pistons in the kit I think they are K240AS and I haven't found anything bad online about them...

Any thoughts?

[BlownChevyII]

Keep in mind with a BBC at 540 Cubes your gonna be in the neighborhood of 3650lbs.  In order to get that kinda weight to run with the big dogs of D/R and have a be competitive your gonna need atleast 950HP more like 1000hp preferably.  Thats no slouch with the head restrictions Rich has in place for BBC.  I am positive it can be done, however, you better plan on sinking quite a few dollars into a particular set of those heads Rich is limiting us too.  With the right combination, the right engine builder,  and the right budget someone could build a BBC CLASS KILLER!!!!

I guess only time will tell.

[Rich Smith]

OK what is the better aftermarket block, World or Dart?

I have been looking around and have a spreadsheet going on parts for a possible buildup and I was all set on the Dart block. But then I came a crossed a few places that are big into World stuff, and they appear to be similar, yet World also sells short blocks and balanced rotating assemblies that have similar components that I was going to use when piecing things together, all except Pistons are the same, they are both forged and have similar CR (~14:1) and all specs are similar between the pistons as well. I was thinking JE pistons, but the World balanced rotating assemblies come with Wiseco, and I could settle for those unless I find something out there that I don't like about them...

So unless someone can tell me why I should not go with the World balanced rotating assembly then I have the choices below:
 1) Dart Big M block ~ $2,229.99 + hand selected R/A ~ $2,650 = 4879.99 + machine work including balancing the R/A and install
 2) Dart big M block ~ $2,229.99 + World balanced R/A ~ $2,499.95 = $4,729.94 + machine work and install
 3) World Merlin III Block and R/A ~$4,399.99 + machine work and install
 4) World shortblock w/ same merlin III block and balanced R/A ~ $4,799.00 assembled (unless these are bad, and please tell me if they are, I think the price is about right )

If I was going to go with the parts I was piecing together seperatly (choice 1), then the rotating assembly would be a little more and that is not even balanced yet, but have slightly better pistons in my oppinion. But then again I don't know much about the Wiseco pistons in the kit I think they are K240AS and I haven't found anything bad online about them...

Any thoughts?

Did you divorce your wife??

[1SlowFormula]

OK what is the better aftermarket block, World or Dart?

I have been looking around and have a spreadsheet going on parts for a possible buildup and I was all set on the Dart block. But then I came a crossed a few places that are big into World stuff, and they appear to be similar, yet World also sells short blocks and balanced rotating assemblies that have similar components that I was going to use when piecing things together, all except Pistons are the same, they are both forged and have similar CR (~14:1) and all specs are similar between the pistons as well. I was thinking JE pistons, but the World balanced rotating assemblies come with Wiseco, and I could settle for those unless I find something out there that I don't like about them...

So unless someone can tell me why I should not go with the World balanced rotating assembly then I have the choices below:
 1) Dart Big M block ~ $2,229.99 + hand selected R/A ~ $2,650 = 4879.99 + machine work including balancing the R/A and install
 2) Dart big M block ~ $2,229.99 + World balanced R/A ~ $2,499.95 = $4,729.94 + machine work and install
 3) World Merlin III Block and R/A ~$4,399.99 + machine work and install
 4) World shortblock w/ same merlin III block and balanced R/A ~ $4,799.00 assembled (unless these are bad, and please tell me if they are, I think the price is about right )

If I was going to go with the parts I was piecing together seperatly (choice 1), then the rotating assembly would be a little more and that is not even balanced yet, but have slightly better pistons in my oppinion. But then again I don't know much about the Wiseco pistons in the kit I think they are K240AS and I haven't found anything bad online about them...

Any thoughts?

Did you divorce your wife??

No, just telling her the truth, why waste money building up the LT1 and spend a crap load on the badest LT1 motor and then have to get aftermarket computers and all that crap, just to be able to run 10's or maybe 9's if the weather is right...

If I jump right into the bigger motor then I have a better platform to build on if need be...

[1SlowFormula]

Keep in mind with a BBC at 540 Cubes your gonna be in the neighborhood of 3650lbs.  In order to get that kinda weight to run with the big dogs of D/R and have a be competitive your gonna need atleast 950HP more like 1000hp preferably.  Thats no slouch with the head restrictions Rich has in place for BBC.  I am positive it can be done, however, you better plan on sinking quite a few dollars into a particular set of those heads Rich is limiting us too.  With the right combination, the right engine builder,  and the right budget someone could build a BBC CLASS KILLER!!!!

I guess only time will tell.

I've just run the numbers and I know exactly what you are talking about, but when I started planning my build I thought an easy 750HP would get me where I needed to be, without looking over the weight penalty. This is why I was looking at a 540 since that would have been a ratehr easy number to hit even with a tight budget build. However, your right on with the output needed by a 540 to run 9.0's. I might need to look for smaller cubes, but I think even if I do a decent 540 I can hopefully squeeze 800 horses from it and run in the mid - high 9's for a season or so without breaking the bank, then I can tweek that combo and build upon the bigger cube motor more easily over time then a smaller one...

Or am I looking at this the wrong way?

[1SlowFormula]

OK what is the better aftermarket block, World or Dart?

I have been looking around and have a spreadsheet going on parts for a possible buildup and I was all set on the Dart block. But then I came a crossed a few places that are big into World stuff, and they appear to be similar, yet World also sells short blocks and balanced rotating assemblies that have similar components that I was going to use when piecing things together, all except Pistons are the same, they are both forged and have similar CR (~14:1) and all specs are similar between the pistons as well. I was thinking JE pistons, but the World balanced rotating assemblies come with Wiseco, and I could settle for those unless I find something out there that I don't like about them...

So unless someone can tell me why I should not go with the World balanced rotating assembly then I have the choices below:
 1) Dart Big M block ~ $2,229.99 + hand selected R/A ~ $2,650 = 4879.99 + machine work including balancing the R/A and install
 2) Dart big M block ~ $2,229.99 + World balanced R/A ~ $2,499.95 = $4,729.94 + machine work and install
 3) World Merlin III Block and R/A ~$4,399.99 + machine work and install
 4) World shortblock w/ same merlin III block and balanced R/A ~ $4,799.00 assembled (unless these are bad, and please tell me if they are, I think the price is about right )

If I was going to go with the parts I was piecing together seperatly (choice 1), then the rotating assembly would be a little more and that is not even balanced yet, but have slightly better pistons in my oppinion. But then again I don't know much about the Wiseco pistons in the kit I think they are K240AS and I haven't found anything bad online about them...

Any thoughts?

Did you divorce your wife??

No, just telling her the truth, why waste money building up the LT1 and spend a crap load on the badest LT1 motor and then have to get aftermarket computers and all that crap, just to be able to run 10's or maybe 9's if the weather is right...

If I jump right into the bigger motor then I have a better platform to build on if need be...

Oh yeah, that and I have been doing work around the house, too... 

http://www.pszweb.com/house/closetrenovation.html

[Starkravingmad]

If your looking for a pre assembled short block with a dart block to purchase "off the shelf", try Shafiroff or Reher-Morrison.  Both Dart and World have their plusses but my next one will be a Dart.  Making 900+ with only Edelbrock heads as a choice for D\R is not cheap.  You'll have as much in those heads as the short block to make them hit that number!

[1SlowFormula]

If your looking for a pre assembled short block with a dart block to purchase "off the shelf", try Shafiroff or Reher-Morrison.  Both Dart and World have their plusses but my next one will be a Dart.  Making 900+ with only Edelbrock heads as a choice for D\R is not cheap.  You'll have as much in those heads as the short block to make them hit that number!

  Well I figured there was someone around here that must be decent with head work, and the plan is to consult them on what casting has the most potential of whats allowed and then have them have fun getting the most out of them...